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EngineerSoldier
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Posted: 08/June/2004 at 03:04 | IP Logged  |  Copy the link in order to refer to this post Quote EngineerSoldier

 You yourself said that Switzerland can raise a million man army in moments. Did Switzerland ever join the battle even after the tide had turned? not that I am aware.

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 A million men at the southern flank would have been rather useful at the bulge.

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twiw
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Posted: 08/June/2004 at 04:08 | IP Logged  |  Copy the link in order to refer to this post Quote twiw

EngineerSoldier wrote:
 You yourself said that Switzerland can raise a million man army in moments. Did Switzerland ever join the battle even after the tide had turned? not that I am aware.
 

That was in the late 80s. 1.1 million men to be exact.

In 1940 we were 4.2 million people with an army of 450.000 men. An army solely built to defend the country. Or where do you think would have gone with our 12 (yes, twelve) tanks at that time?

Switzerland joined lots of battles and wars, its entire existence is founded and based on wars, or how do you think that nation survived for more than 700 years in the midst of the most warmongering area of the world?

The last foreign soldier (Napoleonic) left Switzerland 201 years ago, in 1803, and since 1815 (Congress in Vienna) Switzerland is officially a neutral country.

 

But I would like to get an answer to my last post, from you too:

What would have been your choice?



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twiw wrote:

EngineerSoldier wrote:
 You yourself said that Switzerland can raise a million man army in moments. Did Switzerland ever join the battle even after the tide had turned? not that I am aware.
 

That was in the late 80s. 1.1 million men to be exact.

In 1940 we were 4.2 million people with an army of 450.000 men. An army solely built to defend the country. Or where do you think would have gone with our 12 (yes, twelve) tanks at that time?

Switzerland joined lots of battles and wars, its entire existence is founded and based on wars, or how do you think that nation survived for more than 700 years in the midst of the most warmongering area of the world?

The last foreign soldier (Napoleonic) left Switzerland 201 years ago, in 1803, and since 1815 (Congress in Vienna) Switzerland is officially a neutral country.

 

But I would like to get an answer to my last post, from you too:

What would have been your choice?

 

Escapse to America, join the Army and land as an Army Engineer at Omaha beach, preferably not on the first wave.



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EngineerSoldier wrote:
twiw wrote:

EngineerSoldier wrote:
 You yourself said that Switzerland can raise a million man army in moments. Did Switzerland ever join the battle even after the tide had turned? not that I am aware.
 

That was in the late 80s. 1.1 million men to be exact.

In 1940 we were 4.2 million people with an army of 450.000 men. An army solely built to defend the country. Or where do you think would have gone with our 12 (yes, twelve) tanks at that time?

Switzerland joined lots of battles and wars, its entire existence is founded and based on wars, or how do you think that nation survived for more than 700 years in the midst of the most warmongering area of the world?

The last foreign soldier (Napoleonic) left Switzerland 201 years ago, in 1803, and since 1815 (Congress in Vienna) Switzerland is officially a neutral country.

 

But I would like to get an answer to my last post, from you too:

What would have been your choice?

 

Escapse to America, join the Army and land as an Army Engineer at Omaha beach, preferably not on the first wave.

 

Will you forever dodge the questions?

What would have been your choice?

And your guys obsession with the landing in the Normandy is amazing. Russia paved the way for you and made the entire landing possible. They reduced the Wehrmacht to an army that actually could was beaten long before you landed. ("You" means Britain, the US, Canada and others, in order of their importance in the invasion - and in order of their actual strength).

Do you know how many German divisions you faced in the Normandy?

3.

 

Do you know how many German divisions Russia faced?

 

270



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 Russia's massive population should be noted at this point along with their, um, intriguing military practices. Like how to clear a mine field. Have soldiers walk across arm in arm, when part of the line blows up, you found a mine. Replace with more soldiers, repeat. Or the good ole' "retreat and we'll kill you" strategy. I have a feeling they're part of the reason behind Germany's success.
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EngineerSoldier wrote:
Escapse to America, join the Army and land as an Army Engineer at Omaha beach, preferably not on the first wave.



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twiw
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twiw wrote:
[QUOTE=tude dog]

I fully understand twiw in his frustration.

Well, maybe not fully, but the plight of his nation was obvious.

I have to admit I do not know very much about Switzerland.

In William L. Shirer's book Berlin Diary, after Germany invaded Poland he wrote of his desperate desire to get his wife and young son out of Switzerland.

Whereas in previous years doing his job in Germany as reporter and broadcaster, he found Switzerland an island of sanity. But as soon as the war began life there became precarious.

Shortages of all kinds etc.

That book was not about war time Switzerland, but gave a glimpse into life at that time.

For anyone interested in WW2 both of Shirer's books, Berlin Diary and The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich are recommended reading.

 

I'm actually not frustrated about the blame Switzerland gets for their doings in WW2. That blame is fully justified, I'd be the last one who would deny that.

Frustrating is that most people only know "Stolen Gold, killed Jews & Nazi collaboration", are repeating that over and over, and think they have a point.

I have asked all and every of them what THEY would have done when being in the position to rule Switzerland at that time. If they would have sacrificed a cnoutry that was completely surrounded by the Fascists (Germans and Italians) and 100% dependable from imports - as Switzerland has zero natural resources. Imports from the Fascist of course, if you're surrounded by them you won't get anything else.

I never got an answer except for such brillant replies like "marching against the Nazis and dying with honor blablabla".

Fact is that we dealt with the Nazis a huge lot (as well as with the Allies, but not quite as much with them), we have been the only country in the world that dealt with the gold the Nazis stole from the occupied countries national banks, we have taken much of the gold that was broken out of the gassed Jews teeth, we have delievered lots of weapons to Nazi Germany - we have been the devils bankers.

Without Switzerland Hitler wouldn't have been able to finance his war latest in winter 1943. The war would have been over by then, without Switzerlands money-washing. Most people don't know about this.

Fact is that the Swiss suddenly said "The ship is full", meaning that they could not take more Jewish refugees because they claimed not to have enough space for them. The Swiss customs sent thousands of Jews dircetly back into Germany, causing their death in the Nazis gas chambers.

Fact is that the only reason why Hitler did not invade Switzerland, was that they financed his war through their trade with the Nazi-gold. The Swiss army was a joke compared to the Wehrmacht, and Hitler would have invaded them within one day. That is not an exaggeration, the Swiss master plan was that all amjor cities would have been given up in case of an attack, and that the entire Swiss army would have moved into the mountains, the so-called Gotthardfestung. Hitler would have been sitting in Zurich, drinking a coffee, while the Swiss would have defended some worthless mountains - that would never have been attacked by Hitler. It's not only me who considers the Swiss master plan as one of the most id**tic military tactics ever. The still-alive Swiss myth, that the large Swiss militia made Hitler hesitate from invading is a bad joke. A man, who conquered entire Europe, attacked Russia with the biggest military effort ever and wanted to rule the world would not even have hesitated for a second when there would have been a proper reason to invade tiny Switzerland.

And that reason he never had. To keep the Nazis bankers in Switzerland alive

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Posted: 10/June/2004 at 01:53 | IP Logged  |  Copy the link in order to refer to this post Quote EngineerSoldier

 
twiw wrote:
Do you know how many German divisions you faced in the Normandy? 3. Do you know how many German divisions Russia faced? 270

If you'd stop being a pussy about java console problems and play Axis and Allies with me, you'd realize that I realize the role the Russian front played in making the allies landing possible.

That doesn't change the fact that the Allies were the only ones there to liberate anything and that is our crucial role in saving your worthless asses.




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twiw wrote:
I know that my post was originally directed at tude, but you were the first to reply, so godamnit, give a reasonable answer!

First of all, I would like to apologize for not answering your post earlier.

Last night I did start a reply, made several starts and grew frustrated that I could not satisfy myself with an appropriate answer to your well written post.

Even now after so much time to think of it I and not clear on how to word my feelings into organized thought.

My country never had to fear what Switzerland faced in the '30s and '40s, never.

It is only by some second hand experience when some of us went to war, on someone else soil, or experienced serious civil disorder.

Even during our Civil War when much of the South was devastated by Union Armies, there was nothing to compare to what the Nazis's threatened its occupied territories. And that was over 135 years ago.

I am also often guilty of the same problems some of my fellow Americans have of not truly appreciating the dangers that others face. Americas sons go to war, but we do not experience the dangers of war to our own neighbors, friends and family.

It is with abstract interest that we read about it, see it on television etc. Even our mothers and fathers who feared for us, and mourn those of us who do not come back, still don't have to fear for themselves also.

To this day I remember as a 12 year old looking at a map of war time Europe, all the black that surrounded your little country, and I was curious about that, but never really investigated it. Since then I have read off handly about your country during those years, and still had no clear idea of what your people faced.

With all that said, I appreciate your informed and candid post.

And to answer the question that ES won't touch, given the same circumstances no doubt I would have done the same thing.

ES has often said that he would suck a dick for politicians that he liked.

I don't think he is one to lecture the rest of us on anything concerning honor.

 

 

 

 

Edited by tude dog on 10/June/2004 at 04:24


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EngineerSoldier
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cwintraining wrote:
 Russia's massive population should be noted at this point along with their, um, intriguing military practices. Like how to clear a mine field. Have soldiers walk across arm in arm, when part of the line blows up, you found a mine. Replace with more soldiers, repeat. Or the good ole' "retreat and we'll kill you" strategy. I have a feeling they're part of the reason behind Germany's success.
 

I really don't think we can judge. The notable thing about the Soviet Union is that they used such measures even when not at war, thus our dislike of them. During war, the alternative was to lose.



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Posted: 10/June/2004 at 05:02 | IP Logged  |  Copy the link in order to refer to this post Quote EngineerSoldier

tude dog wrote:

twiw wrote:
I know that my post was originally directed at tude, but you were the first to reply, so godamnit, give a reasonable answer!

First of all, I would like to apologize for not answering your post earlier.

Last night I did start a reply, made several starts and grew frustrated that I could not satisfy myself with an appropriate answer to your well written post.

Even now after so much time to think of it I and not clear on how to word my feelings into organized thought.

My country never had to fear what Switzerland faced in the '30s and '40s, never.

It is only by some second hand experience when some of us went to war, on someone else soil, or experienced serious civil disorder.

Even during our Civil War when much of the South was devastated by Union Armies, there was nothing to compare to what the Nazis's threatened its occupied territories. And that was over 135 years ago.

I am also often guilty of the same problems some of my fellow Americans have of not truly appreciating the dangers that others face. Americas sons go to war, but we do not experience the dangers of war to our own neighbors, friends and family.

It is with abstract interest that we read about it, see it on television etc. Even our mothers and fathers who feared for us, and mourn those of us who do not come back, still don't have to fear for themselves also.

To this day I remember as a 12 year old looking at a map of war time Europe, all the black that surrounded your little country, and I was curious about that, but never really investigated it. Since then I have read off handly about your country during those years, and still had no clear idea of what your people faced.

With all that said, I appreciate your informed and candid post.

And to answer the question that ES won't touch, given the same circumstances no doubt I would have done the same thing.

ES has often said that he would suck a dick for politicians that he liked.

I don't think he is one to lecture the rest of us on anything concerning honor.

 

 

 

 

 

Exaggeration. I REALLY want McCain and Powell to switch teams, what can I say?

This shit ain't about honor, its about focusing attention on how important it is that the alliance of free nations stand for this freedom bullshit. Switzerland used the same "no black no white, but gray" bullshit to justify neutrality. Some of you should stop and appreciate how nice it is that that the standing superpower wound up being the one that detests gray. You spit at us like we're some kind of fool for not compromiseing when compromise is not necessary. Compromise with dictatorship or evil does not have to be necessary.

Its the freedom bullshit that got your worthless asses out of your impossible situation that you are so determined to fall back on. Now tell me that Iraqis were not in the same impossible situation every day before day 1 Operation Iraqi Freedom? that makes you a certified Eurotrash a****le. I know you're better than that.  Come on and try now.

Hey what do you know? another similarity between WWII and OIF. Do you think maybe the progression of Iraqi history will follow a similiar trajectory to Europe after the proposal of this freedom bullshit??? you think maybe??? I'm actually rather sure of it. Lady Liberty speaks to me in my dreams, and she has shown me the promised land. She has charged me with the holy duty of leading my people to it, and to drag the hapless Eurogeeks along too. There is no substitute for justice, enlightenment and freedom.

Your "but you don't und

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EngineerSoldier
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twiw wrote:
Switzerland is officially a neutral country.

France, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Great Britain were "neutral countries" too. The United States, Canada, and Australia were the only ones that attacked without being attacked. We were the aggressors against evil. The rest of you would be satisfied with secure borders. The United States has comitted to a secure world.




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EngineerSoldier wrote:

 
twiw wrote:
Switzerland is officially a neutral country.

France, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Great Britain were "neutral countries" too. The United States, Canada, and Australia were the only ones that attacked without being attacked. We were the aggressors against evil. The rest of you would be satisfied with secure borders. The United States has comitted to a secure world.

 

Wrong, wrong and wrong. And wrong again. None of these countries were neutral.

And another wrong: If you don't consider the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and the German declaration of war as the acts of aggressors, then you have a funny understanding about how wars are started.

The US reacted. Nothing else. And only Roosevelt made you finally react; the American people didn't want to.

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EngineerSoldier wrote:
tude dog wrote:

twiw wrote:
I know that my post was originally directed at tude, but you were the first to reply, so godamnit, give a reasonable answer!

First of all, I would like to apologize for not answering your post earlier.

Last night I did start a reply, made several starts and grew frustrated that I could not satisfy myself with an appropriate answer to your well written post.

Even now after so much time to think of it I and not clear on how to word my feelings into organized thought.

My country never had to fear what Switzerland faced in the '30s and '40s, never.

It is only by some second hand experience when some of us went to war, on someone else soil, or experienced serious civil disorder.

Even during our Civil War when much of the South was devastated by Union Armies, there was nothing to compare to what the Nazis's threatened its occupied territories. And that was over 135 years ago.

I am also often guilty of the same problems some of my fellow Americans have of not truly appreciating the dangers that others face. Americas sons go to war, but we do not experience the dangers of war to our own neighbors, friends and family.

It is with abstract interest that we read about it, see it on television etc. Even our mothers and fathers who feared for us, and mourn those of us who do not come back, still don't have to fear for themselves also.

To this day I remember as a 12 year old looking at a map of war time Europe, all the black that surrounded your little country, and I was curious about that, but never really investigated it. Since then I have read off handly about your country during those years, and still had no clear idea of what your people faced.

With all that said, I appreciate your informed and candid post.

And to answer the question that ES won't touch, given the same circumstances no doubt I would have done the same thing.

ES has often said that he would suck a dick for politicians that he liked.

I don't think he is one to lecture the rest of us on anything concerning honor.

 

 

 

 

 

Exaggeration. I REALLY want McCain and Powell to switch teams, what can I say?

This shit ain't about honor................................

 

It is. Because Switzerland joining the Allies, declaring war on Germany, attacking the Nazis or anything like that would have resulted in nothing but the death of a nation. In honor.

Tude doge made a very good reply to twiws post because he can see the same what most people can see:

Can you see that tiny spot in the middle of Europe? Now replace that "Switzerland" with "US", insert 4 million Americans into that spot and tell us what you would have done when you would have been their leader.

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ES? What are you going to do? What are you going to tell Mr.Hitler?
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